The duo returns for the 4th episode of the “Fiber Side Chats”; in this episode, they discuss the Spark Wheelworks / Alto Cycling carbon rim brake failure test at length. The test had some interesting points and certainly started an industry-wide conversation, and there’s no one better to break it down than us. The duo also introduces a new segment called “over/under”; and as always, the #carbonqueries rounds out the episode.
Shawn: 00:00 Welcome to episode four of the fiber side chats. I’m Shawn Small. I’m Dan Stein and this is ruckus composites, the nation’s leader in carbon fiber repair and inspection. And on today’s episode we’re going to be covering the alto spark rim break. Carbon clincher failure test should have stuck to the choir instead of starting of marketing fire. Stay tuned to find out
Shawn: 00:23 for this week and repair. We covered two opposite stories, a basic merita mountain bike where we did one of our new simple black and back repairs as we’re calling it. And then an older [inaudible] conversion.
Dan: 00:48 Yeah, kind of almost a full restoration nation on that one, but we’ll get into it in a little bit. I think we should start with operation restoration. So we have a very. How old is that?
Shawn: 01:30 Probably why we restore so many of these. Yes, because they are not know that almost 20 years old at this point. More than 20 years old at this point. Twenty three, almost 24. Almost 20. Nineteen. You’re also shot up a smaller tubes. A little more of a classic traditional, classic, old classic. I love these bikes. Yeah, me too. They have a little bit of a. just that beautiful classic road bike. Like they look like a road bike. Yeah. I love the cutouts in the chain stays. Yeah, that’s a little while the diamond thing. Yeah. I don’t do a. It doesn’t do any lamb laying up in those, in the corners of the diamond must be very difficult to tell such a pain in the ass and honestly it doesn’t do anything. I mean it looks cool, but yeah, I mean alias that X. Yeah, I don’t.
Shawn: 02:29 I would be. I would argue any sort of structural claims, but, but the carbon fiber is who cares, you can do whatever you want and make it justice strong. That’s true. So why not? Because they did a great job with them. I’ve never seen in all of our repairs. I’ve never seen those chain stays break. That’s true. We usually. Anything involving the chain stays usually the drop coming. Yeah, totally. That’s a good point. How did it come in for any repair work? No, it didn’t have any repair work. They came in for a little bit of corrosion. We see that with these. Oh yeah, it’s [inaudible] almost 24, almost 24 years old. And by if you listened last week, shit is going to be a c, 75 then that’s coming up soon. How soon? Sorry, I’ll do that next year. I’ll drop it. I also like that none of them are the same.
Dan: 03:19 You remember when we saw the c 50 that had the sunflower France painting on it and some are they all. Not everyone’s different, but they have a lot of variations. Yeah. So this one came in for just, you know, it’s 23 years old. I’m a needed a little love and that’s Kinda what we’re good at. You know, we have the skill and experience to do these calm algos. Right. Do you remember where it was corroding? I don’t. I don’t remember. I was a cable style spacey yet again. I was an alloy problem, which was fortunate. If you listened last week, you’ll know more about galvanic corrosion. Check it out and give us five stars to you. We’ll send you a patch. Yeah. Hey, that’s a great idea. I’m fronting that. Yeah, give us five stars will get your address and send you a welcome to rockets patch.
Shawn: 04:06 Yeah. Um, yeah. So it was just quoting on the normal cable stops which are riveted on for these models. Yeah, that’s a good point. And um, so we took them off, kind of the paint falls off around there a little bit. So we go through and boy, nick spent a lot of time and this one actually had, you know, if you’ve ever seen any of these older called Magazino’s, that’s a lot of fades. And airbrushing and ribbon on this one, they’re all different and you know, they, when we get a chance to fully restore one, it’s amazing. And this one, the customer elected us to do why it wasn’t just the full restoration, it was an upgrade retro futurism at its finest. Right. That’s one way of saying that made this one in each tap coal nog oh yeah. So we took off all, which is even more awesome because now it is just spotless.
Shawn: 04:59 I’m no cable stops a mate or paint touch up and say my job easier. But it definitely was not easy at all. No, there were small spots, but it turns out when there’s a hole in the frame you have to cover it and repair it. Funny how that works because it’s very true. So definitely was not easy, but a couple of layers, uh, you know, got everything finished up, airbrushed the total body work, whereas necessary and a two rounds at clear going on. And I didn’t even have to buff this one. Luckily you didn’t have to buff that one. Now I even redid Ernesto call not goes signature in which we have gotten very good at. We got that one on file. The budget sheet. She don’t give away our secrets stay. We made it ourselves. OK. So we can. Yeah. And we just hand calligraphy.
Dan: 05:46 Yeah, we scale it. Oh, it’s cool. I’m definitely, we, like I said, we see a lot of these coal now goes though always for a different case, but this one was a really fun one to work on. It kind of leads us into the next repair story, a bit of a restoration. This sort of all sort of this one. It’s kind of the opposite. Yeah, it is a little bit of the opposite. So what we’re going to be rolling out in 2018 is simpler repair options because we are obviously one of the uh, there’s a lot of good painters out there, but we, you know, we’re on top of that game too. And you know, not everybody wants that. So we’re just, we figured out a couple of options to make an easier repair. Not on the structural side, but just on the pain side.
Shawn: 06:26 Correct. The ruckus. Black inback yeah. Working title, working title. Um, because really, ideally what we’re doing is yet again the structural repairs. Exactly the same. You can’t skimp on that unless you’re one of our competitors. Plink boop way. Um, so the structural work exactly the same. But what we do instead of doing all that body works smoothing and extensive finishing work, you know, this was a mountain, it was a hard tail. Is that 26 inch mountain bike? No, that looks Mama. It does look small. I think it’s just a small frame. It’s definitely not a 26 inch though. Sure. Yeah. It says [inaudible] on the top tube. What does that mean? No, that was. This is multi van. It also says Han’s. Yeah. So, so we’re not really sure what it is. So the story behind this one is it came in for a chain state seats day seats day, a pair, pretty normal repair for us.
Shawn: 07:23 Pretty straight forward. But our customer thought that the price was. He didn’t think the price was a little too high. The price is a little too high for him, but that’s kind of why we rolled out this lack and back is because not everybody cares about what their frame looks like. Yeah. So we want him to know how many times do people will send a bike into us and they’re like, oh, I wanted a crash replacement from x brand, but they didn’t, you know, they didn’t even talk to me. So for them, you know, just black over it. So some people don’t even care what it looks like when it comes back is fine and it’s an older bike and you know, you’re just not that type of person that cares. You’re just like, mom, you just want to say 100 bucks or whatever, depending on the bike. But yeah. So it makes the turnaround time quicker. Lessons the price. And for our customer that’s exactly what we wanted, but we haven’t revealed what bike this is yet though. What is. Hold on. I lived on very famous.
Dan: 07:23 that’s all right. Mama Merita. My Merita Aka just merita not a common bike here in the states. They’re bigger overseas in Europe and Asia expertly
Dan: 08:56 is the blending of the transitions from where the black repair area goes back to the rest of the bike.
Shawn: 09:03 Yeah, we’re spraying a matte finish. So the nice thing with that is there’s a lot of bikes. All the latest craze, which is a huge pain in our ass is a, the dual finished matte and gloss, you know, current brand new bikes and some of these older ones, you know, our matte and black actually makes these look pretty modern all of a sudden.
Dan: 09:18 Yeah, it’s blended right? There’s a full break bridge. I’m on the seat stays and it blends kind of halfway down through there where the seat stay meets the seat tube and down where it also meets the dropout. So in three places that had to be masked off and blended, but it looks really, really good.
Shawn: 09:41 Oh, so sharp. And yet again, it’s just quick. Uh, we know this is really popular and cross bikes on some mountain bikes and we have a great older road bike that you’re like, you know, I love this thing or it’s a rain bike, but no sense of getting it, thrown it out and you know, for a couple hundred bucks we can get it going again. For you,
Dan: 09:59 you’re not the trash. We liked saving bikes, we liked saving classic bikes. We’d like saving new bikes and as we said, you know, full restoration and paint isn’t for everybody so we’ve got an option for those customers.
Shawn: 10:10 Our goal in 2018 is just figure out a way to help more people
Dan: 10:13 for more information on either of these bikes. Make sure you check out our weekly repair blogs, Ruckus comp, [inaudible] slash news, and you can see all of our updated features, more photos and a little bit more in depth story. All of these bikes,,
Dan: 10:37 we saw pretty interesting article by our friends over at bike rumor. They posted essentially what is a failure test, right? Shawn have a bunch of different kinds of carbon. Clincher is out there, they call it the multi brand rim brake test.
Shawn: 10:54 Yeah. Performed by a spark. We’ll works, which I’m not totally sure what they are. I think they’re a small hand. We’ll building business out of a California. Looks like they assemble wheels, I guess I should say, but we’ll building. So they decided, which is, you know, I appreciate it. They kinda built their own a test rig to destroy a bunch of carbon rims. Um, mainly they were mainly just going for heat failure. They just wanted to see what temperature, everything baroque at that. And I’m getting confused here. So spark, we’ll work to perform the test for alto. Correct.
Dan: 11:32 Alto Alto is not to Sarasota, Florida and they do all their machining in house, but I didn’t see anything on their website about actually doing lay up in Sarasota. That’d be interesting. Which leads me to believe that they are importing that. Yeah. Their hubs are machined all insects out from
Shawn: 11:54 one solid block of aluminum. So we’re not actually sure where their rims are manufactured at this point we’re going to take a guess and say that they’re probably important. I would guess pretty interesting read up just on carbon. They say hi, modulates Udi, carbon fiber applies, which is just unidirectional. And I think we talked about the high modulus label is no, I don’t want to say it’s a misnomer, but it can mean a lot of things. It can be defined in the myriad way. Self defined. Yeah. They show a chart of 10 xcel module, module pieces. Um, but I don’t think they, but that I’ve seen this chart before. I think Mitsubishi or Tori and puts it out. I don’t think it’s there. I mean that’s definitely not there is, I think it just lifted it from someone else’s website. Usually the m series is a Mitsubishi Grade Carbon and the t series is a Tory grade carbon.
Shawn: 12:41 Um, there, the Torah and Mitsubishi are the two big main powerhouses in raw carbon fiber manufacturing and what’s called [inaudible]. Basically they combined it with your apostasy and basically roll it up and then give it to a distributor to then sell to someone else to sell to someone else to sell to someone else to go to the end user. Um, but yet again they teamed up with a, with we’ll works and they designed a test. It’s kind of to, I feel like it’s almost a marketing challenge test is where they took rims from their own brand. They took alto rims, bontrager rims and rims and rims, FSC rems night composites, rims, Malbec rims, revolve rims and zip rims. And they, like I said, they were testing them all to failure, failure and basically their idea was to apply the same input power or they all 1200 watts and they were letting the wheel and then they apply to seven pound brake force.
Shawn: 13:45 So they were trying to control as many aspects of the experiment as well. And I, you know, that aspect, they did a really good job and then they let the wheels spin at whatever. Basically rpm wanted to spin it and we’ll talk about that in a second and why that is an interesting variation. And they also use the Swiss stop came black pads on every ram. So another kind of variation. They weren’t using the manufacturer supplied a brake pad? No, they’re trying to set a baseline. So I’m sure the manufacturers are probably, like we say, these brake pads are good for our rooms for specific reason, you know, they know what’s in special sauce. I mean actually that they turned down be rims in this test for that exact reason. Can’t be said they could only perform this test using their brake pads. So they didn’t do, cannot be rooms because obviously it would have thrown off the variable.
Shawn: 14:42 So it kind of an interesting. They published a little chart with some test results, um, basically list all the rooms they have a max temperature and then they were also trying to record how fast the rim cool. Two hundred and 20 degrees Fahrenheit. Four hundred and 20 degrees Fahrenheit is todd. It’s not that hot like you can grab it with your hand and not get burned. But um, I think the rationale, and that was on a descent that’s around the average temperature of where your rim kind of hovers on a sustained was their theory of that wasn’t choosing that temperature. So, you know, it’s kind of interesting from our perspective is allowing, you know, kind of things that jump out to me is a both Lto rims won by a landslide. Oh yeah. It wasn’t even, it wasn’t even close who was four, almost four times.
Shawn: 15:31 So there’s this Kinda, I don’t want to say I’m suspicious, but you know, I grew up to really question a lot of things, especially when it comes to a rigorous scientific testing, you know, peer review journals. Obviously this is the bike industry. They don’t believe my, I shouldn’t say that, but peer review is in his comedy podcast. It’s not as common for a lot of reasons. Um, but am I hitting it at the market? Go knock [inaudible] calm.com/marketing just, um, so they’re, they’re, they, they dominated a down town, but they’re time. The time was, did they apply when they ran out of time? Right. And they just stopped the task. They had to do a second phase. Oh, that’s right. It didn’t fail til the second phase. So what happened was, which is an look at the cooling time back down to 1:20 seconds, it’s 34 compared to 364 seconds.
Shawn: 16:27 So it’s interesting that a lot of other people pointed out because this jumped around it and a lot of other, uh, forums around the Internet that we just read because it’s, you know, we’re bike nerd. So I’m, they listed that the two alto rims, we’re actually spinning faster even though they also saw the same input power, the alto rims were spinning faster and kind of what that means. You can read that as OK, they’re break track was some more slippery essentially is the reason why I was spinning faster. Right? So when things are more slippery, they’re generating a ton less heat right there. Rims did get nearly as hot. There were, I mean they got 260 degrees so their wheels don’t stop as well. So I guess what I am reading essentially, I mean, so when you think of car racing or anything, you want to apply the maximum amount of friction because that’s stopping power.
Shawn: 17:23 So a lot of these other, you know, like your envy and your zip, like all these other bigger brands. They heat it up really fast. Yeah. The night for example, a hundred and 20 seconds, they wanted 200 and eighty six degrees and you’re like, all right, and that’s what, two minutes, just over two minutes. And that’s actually a long breaking. Does like a tube to be holding your brakes at 1200 watts for two minutes. I think the real world is practically impossible. Yeah, exactly. I mean, can it happen? I don’t know, probably. I’m sure there’s some weird climb out there design out there, but um, so I would say Kudos tonight for producing a rim. That stuff’s really well. I’m really so apparently, you know what I mean? I kind of almost look at this as the invert the immersion as being like, you know, those guys actually, sure they blew up or whatever at a hundred and 20 seconds.
Shawn: 18:11 But I’m like, yeah, I’m into that. I’m going to stop you. If anybody wants us to do our own independent test, send us some Aalto rims and some night rooms and we’ll see which ones stops better. Yeah, it’d be interesting. I’ve never actually talked about if you guys are listening, we would love to perform this test. You know, all these other men, you know, NBC, it, Malbec, drove all night and like classic big companies, you know, they put a lot of money into r and D and research. I mean, I like this test for a lot of reasons. I think what this kind of does also is highlight how you can kind of skew the numbers a little bit. Like how many different interpretations have we come off come up with looking at this chart in front of us right now, you know, and so on one sense like is it very open and honest about heat and pressure failure with rim break carbon rims is, but you know, it can, you can still kind of skew numbers and tables a little bit as my mom says [inaudible] and the eye of the beholder.
Dan: 19:15 Totally married. Um, even though he never wins card games. Well, different terms of my, our other real favorite data around here, a commander, lieutenant commander outright. Sorry. So that’s kind of interesting thing. I at the altar just ran out of time, didn’t get that hot. So another kind of interesting. No, they wanted to bring up is the temperature a lot of these rooms actually failed at? I would say that’s a really tight grouping in the grand scheme of temperatures. Yeah. What is the range? The lower two, 60 3:42 fs. Eat. Do they mean fsa or FSC bike lighter? Stronger. Faster. Carbon bike wheels. So def punk is their marketing team? Yes. Oh yes. Later. Stronger, faster, stiffer, oppressive or these? These new company. This is the element wines that are rim or something. Is that their deal? Memphis filaments. Spin evolution. I guess these are OK, but the point we were trying to make is the grouping is still.
Shawn: 20:15 Yeah, I’d say realistically we’re looking at what to Irwin’s around 260 degrees and then up to [inaudible] which is like look at the wall and the zip pull. Three or three point two. So that also. Yeah. Also, the cooling time was exactly the same. Three hundred and 24 seconds. If you want to check out the chart we’re looking at. By the way it’s on bike. Rumor, rumor, Aalto. We’ll test even if you’re just straight up google auto. We’ll test during the boiler. Both 3:30 deployed we should note exploded. Marvel over the old man and the NBA. So interesting there is. You basically have a couple of groupings of numbers are the same, zip are the same. And then when I say envy and Malbec are the same, the nights the only one kind of off on its own, but I mean it’s Kinda in between them all.
Shawn: 21:11 So you know, it’s kind of interesting the way I kinda look at that with a little bit of a engineering’s mind of just how you know carbon’s made is, you know, really what’s happening is you know, when wheels explode or any composite breaks due to heat, it’s not the carbon, it’s the epoxy on the carbon is stable. I mean, it’s made under intensely high heat circumstances of like what, 5,000 something degrees, a carbon stable, you know, in a kind of an interesting real world application of carbon fiber. Disc rotors is airplanes. They use carbon fiber descriptors, so to f one cars I believe, and that you know, yet again, that’s a special case scenario, but the filament and the raw material itself of carbon fiber, you’re not gonna, you’re not even close, but the epoxy that it’s mixed with his, you know, [inaudible] are thermosets.
Shawn: 21:59 So they’re in the plastic family. So when people called carbon stuff, plastic stuff, you know, it’s not, it’s not a lie honestly at all. It’s accurate, but it depends on what their tone of voices. But, so the thermoset and basically, you know, plastics have what’s known as a glass transition temperature. Uh, so if you read a lot of material data sheets, um, you know, material lieutenant commander data sheets, you’ll always see it to note it is capital t subset g and kind of to really summarize it, it’s basically when a plastic under ghost basis taking into heat load where it’s, it’s not failed yet, but it’s starting to break down and basically it starts losing a lot of it’s structure. So it’s kind of just that critical temperature. It’s like it’s not broken yet, it’s not melting gooey, but it’s losing most of its strength.
Dan: 22:56 So at that point is, it’s still a physical reaction or is it a chemical reaction? That’s. Well, it’s thermal. It’s thermal, yeah. So physical. Yeah. So thermosets are pretty much in our, so yeah, it’s a thermal injection and that’s really what’s breaking and when these rims are blowing out, um, it’s kind of the poxy being holding those layers of carbon together because he had a gun. Carbon is stacked and many layers and the epoxy is what holds it in between. So you know, and kind of knowing what a lot of the different grades of APOC car out there is kind of interesting to see how I read that and being like, Oh I wanna know the carbon itself is probably a very similar and it doesn’t even matter how many places can they possibly be getting this carbon from five at the most. Yeah. All these companies, they’re not, nobody makes carbon fiber. They’re buying a Torah or Mitsubishi or possibly even a heck sal. But. So it’s kind of interesting. Old Tech. Yeah.
Shawn: 23:53 I won’t forget about all that was good. Um, so it’s kind of interesting to see what those mean. The point you were making, is that the. Yeah. So it’s interesting what the Alto there. Only a two eighty seven and it didn’t break. So you see that they’re using. Yeah, that’s one thing we haven’t mentioned at all the altos. Even there, even in phase two, after 1200 seconds, a phase two, they increased both the weight and the Rpm as well. Well, which is crazy because then the wheel spins even faster. Right? Right. So it’s providing more airflow over its own surface, so it’s cooling itself even. So, yeah. Again, it’s a little slippery. So the wheels going to spin faster, right. So let’s generating less heat. Um, so then it’s even going to be, you know, cause it was in a closed room, which is the other kind of funny aspect of this because that’s not real world.
Shawn: 24:41 You know, if you’re biking outside, even if it’s a hundred degree day. I mean are any of these tests real world? I mean it could be. I mean like even with helmet, even with helmet testing, they only do drop tests on them and it’ll be interesting. I don’t know. Specialized, you know they have their. When wind tunnels, I hate that it’s called, but it’s a wind tunnel. And why do you hate that? It’s called a wind tunnel. Wind Tunnel Win. Oh God, I hate that. That’s what I mean. They can name it, it’s their w wind tunnel. They can eat whatever they want but like, but when people go in there, they’re literally in it to win it. I hate that. Don’t sue us. But it’ll be interesting if they, I bet they do. I bet they have all sorts of awesome information on the, of all wheels and probably a similar testing mode in actual.
Shawn: 25:25 That’s a realistic environment. It was just interesting. So just kind of interesting tests would love to see a follow-up. All the comments or the follow-up because it’s a bad test at all. Um, I would say it’s, I don’t even wanna call misleading either. It’s just kinda phase one. You could use more development and yet again, just like any good skeptic out there, you know, who’s paying for the test and they even said quote, there are 100 all capitals ways that we could do this test. But we wanted to focus on eliminating as many variables as possible so that we could focus on the rim. That meant standardizing the brake pads and using the same generic carbon pad on every rim. Yeah, exactly. And I’ll give them a lot of credit for doing that. I mean, nobody else has done this. We haven’t done it. Um, that’s a lot of rims.
Shawn: 26:10 I mean, I don’t know if I got them for free, if not, that’s a lot of money. Interesting to us. Would love to see more or you know what I would love to see, you know, we have a thermal camera. Uh, did they explain how they were recording the temperature? I did not. So I would guess it’s infrared, just the classic, like, like we have a couple of those at this point in Jay’s point, the laser at it. Uh, they’re, they’re OK. You can get expensive, Nice ones but a fluke and some cheap ones. But you know, we have a full flir set up, you know, we could do this task obviously that’s the point. They’re trying to destroy them. And yet again, so the cooling time [inaudible] there are two tools. Altos like, so they were close to the same temperature, but in order of magnitude off with cooling time, I mean, so my one question is here, just thinking about tobacco again, Lieutenant Commander Data set, you would need to do many more wheels.
Shawn: 27:06 Cause what if one of these rooms is an outlier, right? For whatever reason, your sample size is incredibly important in analysis, it’s technically a size one because each room is different and each company is different. So. So you would need to do so they have nine samples, [inaudible] samples, individual samples, and they would need. Oh, so you’re suggesting they should take 10, 10 of 10 or 20 of each [inaudible] and normal it you needed. You need to do it all and normalize the data because yet again, you look at their, their alto cc, [inaudible] cooling times 34 seconds and one from, oh it went from 263, 220, 30, 40 seconds. But then phase two it goes up to 80 seven to. No, it goes from, oh it goes from 27 to 1:20 and 364 seconds. That’s 10 times longer. Well just under 10 times longer for a 20 degree difference or 14 degree difference.
Shawn: 28:04 Something is not right because that doesn’t make sense at all. Like anytime you see an order of magnitude difference. So what do we gleaned from this test? You know, honestly you had, again, I want to give him credit for doing it and putting it out there. I, you know, I, my dream at rutgers is to become a random, not random, but like an independent verification source. We know carbon or neutral. We don’t sell wheels, we don’t build wheels. We just fix stuff and analyze it. We got a lot of fun tools. I want to do it also. I love it’s also, you know, data is good, but [inaudible] has better data to just getting a little. Let’s not get into that a different. That’s where our other podcast. Yeah, there exists is opposite data is great. Test results are great. They’re obviously wanted to do this for a reason, so think of that as well.
Shawn: 28:51 Well that’s a little [inaudible] here. No, I’m skeptic. I say it a little more than a little bit more usable. OK. Your tinfoil show and it is in the ceiling here. Yeah. Well thanks for listening and maybe we’ll do our own tests this year. Interesting. Tasked with being there, just looking at the temperature that things fail, right? I mean, honestly, I’m not exactly sure what they’re trying to like why even do it this way? Like if you’re, I mean that’s the question I’m asking. Like what is the, what is the point of this test? Well, I mean honestly, if you wanted to really simplify the test is take the brake pads out of it, take the spinning wheel out of it, take the air moving out of it, put it in damn oven and basically do an indentation test. We just poke it in short. You know?
Shawn: 29:34 So you’re curious. So you’re curious at the rim.
Shawn: 30:20 Why don’t we just put them all on and open? You know what I’m saying? Yeah, I understand that. But the pressure comes from. Or the heat comes from the pressure of the pads. That’s just breaking the. The. They’re exploding because there’s 100 psi in that tube. That’s why they all explode. Our. They’re not crushing know everything exploded outwards.
Shawn: 31:13 Yeah. I guess what are they trying to prove than using the brake pad system? I mean it’s like showing them more of a real world experiment I guess, but it’s not an all real world. They’re trying to show the temperature of the things explode. Yes. That’s all they’re trying to show. Right? I get that. So why don’t they just put temperature into it until it explodes. Cool. I mean marketing people love seeing shit explode. No, I know. But with. So when we, we have cameras, we put it in the go pro in the oven. I mean, so their test is definitely something yet again, I, I think of the inversion of how much heat is generated in the least amount of time. So. So here let’s take the temperature they want from the temperature change. Actually, you know what’s more interesting? So they started at 76, so let’s take the night because it’s at the bottom line is 76.
Shawn: 32:00 So it went 210 degrees in a hundred and 20 minutes. So 210 degrees divided by a hundred and 21 is one point seven, three degrees Fahrenheit per second. That rate of change is probably you. I don’t know for sure, but like you could think about that is how fast are breaking because yet again, friction and heat generally means you stop is so like let’s look at their altos to 27 minus 76 through 11 divided by 1200. They all started at 76 degrees. Yeah. That was just the room temperature. So the night has two of magnitude higher than the rate of change as the rate of change is a degree per second. So yeah. So that’s really interesting. So I think that is actually. So I think there, the interesting thing here is the temperature. Honestly, I want to see a get the actually probably. What do you think these characters to the [inaudible] and a hundred and eighty four.
Shawn: 33:00 That’s hot wheels. Probably that thing you’d probably stop on a dime. So that’s 256 to [inaudible] [inaudible] what did I say? The [inaudible] I thought it was one point two. One point seven. What does one point two that night, that thing is always stops. Great. That’s. Yeah, yeah. That’s how I think about this. We’ll leave it on that. Just because someone tells you something doesn’t mean you know, you can find your own story in there just like we do and had to get on my soapbox, but like there’s so much marketing and you know, I understand it takes marketing advertising to sell, but you know, if you’re a consumer you can, you know, buy into the market. That’s fine, but also just know what your wagon and you’re pitching yourself to, um, or just be like, you know, I don’t know, like, hey, should I trust this tiny company nobody’s ever heard of or should I trust these bigger companies?
Shawn: 33:57 You know, it’s kind of. I guess that’s the national dialog right now is do we trust the people that have been in control and power for awhile? Or do we just trust some total outsider? We want to think critically about it in short. Think critically. And that’s a good summary. And that’s Kinda why fun spot where ruckuses is. We’re neutral. We don’t sell anything. We just perform service who you just perform inspection, we just want to tell you your object is safe or if it’s not safe, we want to help you repair it, or even we elect not to repair things because it’s not safe, so you know yet again, we want to think critically and have a good day platform to do that. There.
Shawn: 34:43 Over under it’s just kind of rapid fire. A comment question, answer of somethings over-hyped or under hyped. We stole this idea from the planet money podcast, podcasts which stole it from another podcast or keeping the traditional live at first question. Basically what we’re going to do is rapid fire questions at each other. Give a very high level topic and whoever answers this is going to say overrated, underrated. And why? Quick way a quick y. we’ll start off with Shawn. Overrated. Underrated smart bike integration. Overrated. Stupid. In short, your phone can do it at all. Um, I don’t know unless you have an e-bike I guess like, what’s the point? Uh, Shawn overrated. Underrated. Suc doping rated a no. No explanation. Nothing. Nothing. Yeah. Nothing, but they’re also a underrated
Dan: 35:38 gravel grinding.
Shawn: 35:39 Underrated. Tell me more. Uh, it’s fun. A lie. You can see a lot of new roads do out with friends. It takes a little less of the, a pomp and circumstance off road writing. Low Key. Even with the current. Even with the current trending stilting, every that’s great. Cool about a lot of roads and explore a drone. Photography. Overrated or underrated, underrated. Whoa. You know, uh, there’s a lot we can learn. And as I found out today, the trump administration, again, as now I’m making it mandatory that all drone pilots get a licensed. Yeah, they’re going crazy. It’s just the way for the man to get his way for the man to get his money. I don’t even know it was that simple. Dan over under 11. Speed. Completely over. What do you even own? 11 space. I do. I just got completely overrated. You don’t need those gears. So you just gotta pick the right cassette. They hadn’t. Overrated, underrated Internet. Eighth steer tubes at this point. I’d say underrated. Everything’s oversized now. Even better. Yeah. That’s true. A overrated, underrated. Hardtail. 20 niners.
Dan: 36:50 Good question. Hard question. I’m going to say overrated. What really, I think sadly they’re overrated. I love them, but I think you can say underrated because nobody has them anymore. No, I think they’re overrated. I love them, but I think there’s a lot of like suffering mystique, like your hard quarterly, right? At 29 or hard tail. Are you tough? Do you like to climb this card? Carbon hard tails come into that. Yeah, I love them, but I think they’re overrated for that. Like a romanticism about having no suspension. It’s true, so yeah, I’m going to say overrated. OK.
Shawn: 37:29 Expected on that one
Dan: 37:39 podcast where we move on from our main topic and into our carbon queries. As always, these carbon queries are user generated questions that we kind of pick and choose what we like a little bit depending on the topic of conversation. As always, you can submit these using the Hashtag carbon queries through instagram, facebook. Give us an email, give us a call. We’re also on linkedin and now through itunes and Google play as well. It’s true. That’s awesome. Our first question goes a lot with what we have been discussing as far as rims today. The first question is can carbon rims be repaired not safely, and the reason why I say
Shawn: 38:17 that is a carbon room, any room in your vehicle, like truck, car, vehicle, tire, it’s a spinning object. It needs to be balanced for starters and just like we’re talking about with this whole alto test is it needs to be able to dissipate. He be able to absorb it or just handle it one way and typically yet again we know the temperature of our residents systems, but it’s still not going to be a natural fit that maybe our residence system will retain he differently than what the room was built with. So in general we don’t touch them. We will repair full disc wheels. I’m kind of like those big zip folders that are used in what the track racing and the reason why we do those is a lot of material and typically the damage is nowhere near the right track. It’s in the middle of the wheel from just some sort of mishap like shipping or something falls on it and that’s a pretty easy repair.
Dan: 39:17 As Shawn mentioned, there’s a lot that goes into the wheel as well. I mean think about trying to lay up around a clincher part of a carbon wheel. Yeah, that’d be a ridiculously difficult place to lay up and safely compact the carbon in the first place and then after that you have to think about removing the epoxy and then break pulsing, you know, trying to repair a rim break track on a carbon clincher is imp is next to impossible to ensure that there’s been no pulsing in that realm. Yeah, exactly. Anyway, honestly, what’s changed in the last few years is almost every Caribbean rim company has an awesome crash replacement plan. I mean, it’s kind of the same thing. If you can afford a fancy setup, envies. The replacement plan is pretty affordable considering. I mean I don’t. It’s a couple hundred bucks, isn’t it? Zip has had one since.
Shawn: 40:07 I think the beginning yet for a really long time is really awesome. I mean they’re trying to make it, you know, the rims are great. Like can still break it. Yeah. You can break an aluminum room, but like you break anything obviously, but you know, they’re often really awesome alternative to try and get more people on the rims and they’re expensive, but you know, safety is worth it in our opinion. Safety is worth it. Great question. Thank you for that. The next question, we’re going to kind of keep it moving along this week because we had a long topic of conversation, but the next question is what is fiber grip and why do I need to use in the first place? It’s those are those little packets that you commonly see coming with your components on a big tub. And we’re in a big tub a lot of different ways.
Shawn: 40:49 Everyone’s got their own, just like greases and oils and everything. Everyone’s got their own secret sauce. It’s, you know, it’s a proprietary mixture in general. Fiber paste or grips are, you know, typically a grease component. Um, just to Kinda, you know, that’s your goo. And then there’s always kind of a particulate matter. Again, everyone has their own secrets on. The ones I’m most familiar with is like a traditional grease and it adds, I think fumed see what’s known as fumed silica and you know, [inaudible] Kinda like saying basically what it’s there to do is with a lot of carbon parts, you know, they’re clear coated or they have like an outer residence surface and the fumes silica or that particular matter helps yet again also friction and to absorb any gaps between, you know, mating parts of your stem face and your handlebars. You know, a thompson stem, for example, great.
Shawn: 41:45 It’s machined. You can machine incredibly accurately, you know, they, I don’t know what the machine too, but easily a thousandth of an inch accuracy across that face. Uh, you know, a carbon parts can be molded extremely accurately, but they also then have to be coded a in that coding is incredibly hard to spray to that same level of accuracy. So that fiber grip, it helps just, you know, fill tiny gaps. Uh, it helps hold things and you know, you talked a lot of shot mechanics. They use it and it all removed. You know, every now and then you’ll get like a weird popping sound out of the carbon part. There’s nothing wrong sometimes there is, but generally there’s nothing wrong and that fiber grip just helps fill some of those gaps so that it evens out the clamping pressures. I love it. You know, it’s another thing like grease.
Shawn: 42:25 You can just kinda put it on everything. You kind of want to be careful not in the place of grease. You’re not in the place. Exactly. Some things should be greasy. Obviously fiber grip. The only one to use. I only use it with mating surfaces, so stem to handlebars. I think there’s a real classic one. Certain seat posts I don’t feel like you needed if you have a round seat posts, but if you have a non round seat posts, the aeropostale or seat mass topper, that’s not round. I use him there, but yet again, if even around carbon seat post is almost perfect. Diametrically inmates with the frame. The frame could be to have some issues, but I don’t know where else you would really use it on a bike because steer tubes that perfect shape generally too, cause that’s posted machine and other. Great question.
Shawn: 43:07 Yeah, I keep a little bit at home. You with the grease, you have the card when you’re switching carbon parts. Thanks again for the great submissions. Everybody has always, like I said, you can submit them using the Hashtag carbon queries on instagram, facebook, twitter, itunes, soundcloud, or Google play. That wraps up episode four of the fiber side chats. We’re going to take about a week off for the holidays and come back in the new year with our fifth episode. We’ve got something special planned for that, so make sure you stay tuned. Also, please make sure to like follow share, retweet, repost, and help get the word about the podcast. If you know a geeky cyclists in your life and have them tune in, we’ll see you all next week. As always, the only moment we have is the president and every once in a while